Head Scarves Banned In Paris, Some Protest, What is your Position?

Published on September 8, 2004 By Deference In Politics

We've all heard of France's (poor) decision to ban head scarves in schools. This policy is a slap in the face to all who believe in a free society. Forget freedom fries, this is something much more important, I can't see any American (or even Frenchie) supporting this poorly devised policy that practically invites terrorism and protest. Oddly enough, there has been little protest beside the action these one hundred young women have offered. What does the JoeUser community think about this?

The link to the yahoo news article is here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=14&u=/ap/20040908/ap_on_re_eu/france_head_scarves

Comments (Page 2)

drmiler

on Sep 12, 2004

Head Scarves Banned In Paris, Some Protest, What is your Position?

By: Deference
Posted: Wednesday, September 08, 2004
Message Board: Politics
We've all heard of France's (poor) decision to ban head scarves in schools. This policy is a slap in the face to all who believe in a free society. Forget freedom fries, this is something much more important, I can't see any American (or even Frenchie) supporting this poorly devised policy that practically invites terrorism and protest. Oddly enough, there has been little protest beside the action these one hundred young women have offered. What does the JoeUser community think about this?

Personally I think it "sucks"! But then again it ain't America and they don't have the same freedoms that you and I enjoy!

Solitair

on Sep 13, 2004

I find foreigners reaction to the french ban to be hilarious. All this talk of freedom and right to dress how they want. What about the right to rule themselves as they want? Lets look at the facts

- The French as a nation decided on a constituion which keeps state schools secular.
- The French as a nation decided to reinforce this constitution with a law banning overt religious attire. Large majority in favour of this.

Now what is wrong with the French stopping over religious symbolism in state schools. Small crosses can still be worn, as can bandanas for muslims (approved by the muslim community as acceptable by the way). Full religious attrire is perfectly acceptable in all other locations or in private schools. France is a democracy and this is the decision they have made. It has already been vetted by the European courts of human rights to ensure that it is not discriminatory and been passed. Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live?

No this is just another excuse to French bash.

Imagine how upset Americans would get if a Frenchman tried to tell them that they couldn't own guns. That they didn't have the right to make that choice because others disapprove.

Paul.

O G San

on Sep 13, 2004

Personally, I say "bravo" to the French parliament for defending their noble secualrist ideals.

I only wish religion had been kept out of schools when I was a child.

Lee1776

on Sep 13, 2004

Good post Solitair, I agree.

I may not like the French, but this will not be one of the reasons for me.

My Two Cents

Deference

on Sep 13, 2004

You are correct to a point. In America what you said would be 100% true. "But" it ain't America, it's France.

True, I failed to make that distinction in post #14 between the U.S. local schoolboards and whatever system they have set up in France. The fact that both claim to be part of the "free world" however, is important, when, in many ways neither truly are, the French are just acting out in a different yet equally poor manner.

Personally, I say "bravo" to the French parliament for defending their noble secualrist ideals.

I don't have too much of a problem with the whole "secular society" bit, it's when it wages war on the non-secular it should supposedly co-exist with that I then have a problem.

Deference

on Sep 13, 2004

Now what is wrong with the French stopping over religious symbolism in state schools. Small crosses can still be worn, as can bandanas for muslims (approved by the muslim community as acceptable by the way). Full religious attrire is perfectly acceptable in all other locations or in private schools. France is a democracy and this is the decision they have made. It has already been vetted by the European courts of human rights to ensure that it is not discriminatory and been passed. Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live

Didn't say the French couldn't live the way they want. (Bush 1 voice) Nah' gonna' do it (end Bush 1 voice). I'm simply expressing my disappointment with a supposedly "free" country doing what they can to limit individual liberties in expressing their religious preference. Not discriminatory? This ban is targeted directly at Muslims, wouldn't you agree?

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 13, 2004

Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live?

Interesting in light of the fact that the European culture has been making value judgements on us for YEARS...but it's "not fair" when the shoe's on the other foot?

PlausibleDeniability

on Sep 13, 2004

I think the big problem with this is it was a ban against "conspicuous" articles of religious significance. So veils are the most easily targeted, along with yamakuh's (sp?) but tastefull crosses and the like are still ok. The point was to keep people focused on school instead of religion, and to not be singled out for the obviousness of their religion. (France has a very large Muslim population.) But it is bigotry against Islamic people, and it is intolerant. Telling people they need to embrace their new French culture is all well and good, but it's ultimately a repressive, imperialistic attitude. I would have expected more from someplace like France.

O G San

on Sep 13, 2004

Deference,

"I don't have too much of a problem with the whole "secular society" bit, it's when it wages war on the non-secular it should supposedly co-exist with that I then have a problem"

They're not "waging war" on the non-secular world at all. People are free to wear whatever religious symbols they like out on the street, or in their own homes. Just not in school. Seems fair enough to me.

Solitair

on Sep 14, 2004

What is wrong with it being intolerant? It is equally intolerant of ALL religions. Yes, muslim face scarfs may be seen as the primary target, but the law only applies the constitution, which was written centuries before muslims were ever an issue in France. Don't forget that religiously acceptable alternatives are allowed.

Try flipping the argument around though. Why should any group be allowed to be intolerant of the wishes of the Fench majority as inscribed in their constitution? Surely minorities should also be tolerant of the wishes of the people as a whole?

There is a big difference between intolerance and bigotry. The French have strict limits on religious attire in schools in accordance with their laws and constitution. Intolerant? Maybe. Bigoted it is not. The word bigot means 'One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ'. This is not the case, the French constitution abns all religion, not just those that differ from the majority.

To compare the intolerance and reduction of freedom to alternative situations.
Imagine the reaction if naturalists insisted on the right for their kids to be naked in school. Would you expect any society to be intolerant of this?
Look a the debate in the US over the Patriot act. It reduces freedoms and tolerance but is supported by many.

You must accpet that a democratic society has the right to apply limitations to its freedoms and tolerances, so long as these are equally applied to all.

Paul.

Deference

on Sep 14, 2004

Article 2 of the French Constitution reads:
(1) France is an indivisible, secular, democratic, and social Republic. It ensures the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction as to origin, race, or religion. It respects all beliefs. (this amendment was added in 1946, many years after the constitution was created in the 1800's)

This amendment was to insure the French never had to suffer through a corrupt church reigning over the government as their ancestors did. That is the spirit of this amendment, it was not intended to serve as a bedrock for further amendments limiting personal religious accessories such as scarves. The fact that the new amendment does exactly that crosses the line from being simply a good division of church and state, and becomes an encroachment upon civil liberties. This was not something that was passed or asked for by the French people themselves, but rather, by their representatives who passed this bill in the legislature. Americans, how many times have your representatives passed bills contrary to your wishes? Of course, this might reflect the French public's belief that their society is in danger of being overrun by outside immigrants. Most immigrants to France are Muslim and represent only 8% of the population, but some demographers say that a high birth rate amongst these could lead to Muslims becoming the majority in only 25 years.

"Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin opened four days of debate on the bill by laying out the reason for the ban. "Certain religious signs, among them the Islamic veil, are multiplying in our schools. They are taking on a political meaning," he said. "Some want to know how far they can go. We are giving them a response today."

"The French government introduced a bill Tuesday in the National Assembly that would ban religious symbols in public schools. The bill, backed by President Jacques Chirac, would forbid large crosses, skullcaps and Sikh turbans. But the measure is aimed mainly at head scarves worn by some Muslim girls. "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-02-03-head-scarves_x.htm

In France, they are getting away with something American conservatives could only dream of; controlling the representation of a particular culture to slow their influence amongst the French. No problem, I think that's a great idea. Let's do it here, too. Let's institute the same policy in America and close our doors to the Muslim populace, let's protect our whitebread culture.

Alas, that will not come about any time soon, can one imagine the immense amount of screaming and pinching by the media, the people, and the partisans? This is my point, the French are doing something we in America would not find acceptable, but they may think of themselves as part of the "free world".

As for America and it's Patriot Act, I think the correct phrase is not "supported by many" but "ignored by most". There is apathy and then there are those that are totally ignorant of it's devastating and far reaching effects. The rest are hawks and stuffies who believe the act will never touch their door.

ShoZan

on Sep 14, 2004

(this amendment was added in 1946, many years after the constitution was created in the 1800's

(War of 1812 Theme Plays)

NAPOLEON BONAPARTE!!! YEAH!!!!

VIVA LA NAPOLEON!!

Deference

on Sep 14, 2004

Thanx Sho.

Solitair

on Sep 15, 2004

Deference,
the latest law is NOT an amendment to the constitution, it is purely a law enforcing aspects of the constitution.

As you have quoted, the French constitution gaurentees religious freedom. It also however bans religious expression in state schools. Hence the new law clarifying what is an acceptable and what is not an acceptable expression of religion in state schools. No change here at all, just a clarification.

Yes the influx of muslim face scarfs in schools has been the trigger for this new law, but that's because it's this influx is in direct contradiction to their constitution and was beginning to cause religious tension within schools. France acted to change this.

It is very important to note that muslims are totally free to express their religion outside of state schools (as are christians, jews, buddists, etc). It is also important to note that the law allows not overt religious symbolism and has been carefully discussed wit the muslim community to ensure that head coverings acceptable to muslims can be worn. It is therefore NOT a

controlling the representation of a particular culture to slow their influence amongst the French

but an reinforcement of the values on which the French state is founded, while accepting that the population of that state is changing. It's a clarification of what those values mean in todays world. Religious symbols in state schools? Acceptable, so long as they are discreet and personal and do not interfere with the secular nature of the schooling.

As for introducing such laws into the US, that would be an issue for the US itself.

Paul.

Deference

on Sep 15, 2004

Thanks Paul, for the clarification on the law / amendment bit, I got carried away and failed to make the correct distinction.

The history of the scarves in schools dates back to 1989 when two muslim girls were expelled from school for wearing their scarves. Since that point up till this legislation, girls have been kicked out of schools on a case to case basis in France because of their wearing scarves as it had been seen to school officials to be an "affrontery" to Amendment 2. Scarves have never actually been a "classroom disruption" they've just been seen as a problem by religiously intolerant schoolmarms.

The fact that this type of legislation does control religious expression in such secular zones as schools does consequently show that it is an attempt to keep a particular influence away from the public sphere. No bones about that, let's just call a spade a spade and not sugarcoat it.

"We're not saying you're religious preference is wrong, we're just asking you to..um...tone it down a little."

"Then we kill your journalists you French Fascists, all praise Allah!"

Geez, guys, couldn't we've have handled this a bit more intelligently...how about closing your doors to immigration if you're scared of the changes it will bring?

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